In episode 191, we discuss How to Foster a Mutually Supportive Relationship Between Marketing and Sales. Our subject matter expert today is Sean Campbell, CEO of Cascade Insight focuses on B2B Market Research. He has mentored companies in running successful and profitable professional services firms. He trains sales teams, turns doers into sellers to achieve exceptional performance, and balances marketing and sales efforts, so they’re mutually supportive.
Common challenges for marketing and sales working in silos: Often, marketing preoccupies itself with the data while distancing itself from the customer. On the flip side, sales obsess with customers while ignoring the data. It is important to cultivate an organizational culture in which sales and marketing teams cooperate and educate themselves about the processes and systems of each other. Leadership should map out how to foster a mutually supportive relationship between marketing and sales in the organization, with the common goal of the sales and marketing teams to win over customers. (“Sales like to talk; marketing likes to write”).
Role of communication between sales and marketing: There is a greater understanding of the ideal customer profile when there is positive communication between marketing and sales departments. In this regard, salespeople must be involved in marketing brainstorming over research, data set, or testing. Equally, the sales department should invite marketing people when discussing go-to-market strategies.
Alignment of metrics between marketing and sales: Sean argues that most organizations today confuse their marketing and sales teams with many metrics assigned for measurement. Typically, the starting point of marketing meetings is lead totals, while sales set off with revenue numbers. In general, our subject matter expert argues that there should be a limited number of metrics that each department is tasked with. This, therefore, makes the Alignment of metrics quite critical. (Marketing exists to create customers).
Effect of in-person versus virtual communication: Sean says there should not be major differences between face-to-face and virtual/online communication between sales and marketing. He argues that leveraging creativity effectively fosters the mutually supportive relationship between marketing and sales. Sean notes that some individuals prefer in-person communication and thus fail to take advantage of the possibilities of virtual communication. Sean observes that his capacity to close deals with potential customers in the virtual space has increased dramatically since the pandemic. He advises salespeople to use AI tools like ChatGPT to write content and emails.
Time codes
(02:37) Common challenges for marketing and sales working in silos
(09:09) Role of communication between sales and marketing
(14:17) Alignment of metrics between marketing and sales
(16:46) Effect of in-person versus virtual communication
Transcription
[00:00:03.550] – Intro
You’re listening to the Merged Marketing podcast with me, Jason Hunt. The mission with this show is to discuss all things marketing, sales, and mindset. It’s my hope for entrepreneurs like you to get the most from your efforts so that you can focus on what you do best. Let’s go. You’re listening to Episode 191 of the Merged Marketing podcast.In this episode, we talk about remote collaboration how marketing and sales teams can stay aligned and drive results. My guest on this show is Sean Campbell.
[00:00:35.490] – Jason
Sean’s company, Cascade Insight.Focuses on B2B market research. He has been mentoring companies on how to run successful and profitable professional services firms. He trains sales teams, turns doers into sellers to achieve exceptional performance, and balances marketing and sales efforts so. They’re mutually supportive in this episode, we dive into those silos that naturally exist between marketing and sales and how those two departments can better communicate. So whether you work for a bigger.Company on the sales.Side or the marketing side, or if you’re a solopartner that’s managing both of those hats.Well, this is going to be a good episode for you.Without further.Ado, let’s kick into my chat with Sean Campbell. Sean, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me on. Definitely.
[00:01:22.560] – Jason
Firstly, though,Sean, maybe we can talk a little bit about some of the common challenges that might arise when marketing and sales teams are working in silos.
[00:01:30.780] – Jason
Because at my company, we work at a boutique agency. Marketing and sales really fall under my umbrella. But in bigger companies, they do perhaps work in silos, and there’s some challenges that come with that.
[00:01:43.110] – Sean
Let’s start with probably the first problem, I think, because to me, I’m really passionate about strong communication. And I think really, honestly, you could almost take the first problem that sales likes to talk and marketing likes to write. And even right at that very beginning when you have a dichotomy. Say you’re in a meeting talking about what you should do with a buyer persona, how you should engage with them. And sales will tend to talk about stories almost as if we’re around the proverbial campfire of 3,000 years ago, right? And we’re telling stories. Does that make those less valid? No, actually. I say that B2B sales is running a never ending qualitative research study. Some people are more cognizant that they’re doing that, and they treat it more as an objective exercise nd sometimes not. I wouldn’t be the first person to say that sometimes a member of a sales team might be biased in some way. But conversely, marketing doesn’t always have open ears to those stories. Marketing will turn to the data and they’ll bury themselves and everything from Google Analytics to ABM reports to whatever their favorite dashboard is of the day.
[00:02:53.450] – Sean
And yet they’ve siloed themselves off from a customer. I like to give homework when I do interviews. Part of it is just because I think I’m genetically wired to just when I learn stuff, I like teaching it. I’ve sometimes said I’m pathologically almost incapable of learning something and not wanting to turn around and teach somebody it. If you took a poll in your company, when was the last time a marketer was on a sales call? That number would be infinitesimally low in most companies. And at least in our company, admittedly, we’re a smaller company, but I don’t think this is a problem of scale. I think this is a problem of will at the senior leadership level and focus, frankly, I think you just make that a standard part of the employer review. Hey, marketer, you can show me all the stuff that you’ve done, but tell me how often you were involved in the sales cycle. Not selling a deal, but observing it, watching it happen, asking critical questions. And the same thing is true about sales. Like sales needs to spend some time understanding how God awful difficult it is to figure out in a B2B marketing effort what worked.
[00:03:58.190] – Sean
It’s painful. It’s hard. Where do they relate there? Here’s another junction point that is usually not patrolled well by senior management. What’s the best piece of data a B2B marketer can get about the leads they create? The best piece of data they can get is a salesperson telling that B2B marketer, what did that lead say about what drew them in to talk to the organization? Because we all know the form fill in the field they fill in. Who knows if they were even paying attention? They clicked agriculture instead of aerospace, but they still filled out the form. That stuff is a whole different topic. That qualitative, visceral question that sales should be motivated and compelled to ask at a meaningful point in the initial interaction, basically some version of, why in the hell did our marketing even convince you to contact us? And what you’ll find there is that’s where sales is a good partner.
[00:04:47.860] – Sean
Marketing is like, Hey, this CRM field that says, why did they contact us? Why is it always empty? Well, I think we couldn’t get to. It’s not just about closing the deal. It’s about going back to you are this sensor for the whole company as a salesperson. You are interacting with the customer in a way that nobody else gets to do. Absolutely. And you need to feed that back in. And that’s a mixture of you need to be incentivized to do that. You need to be taught how to do that. You also need to be held accountable because one of the things I say around here a lot, and I’m paraphrasing a guy named David Maester, nothing’s of value unless you enforce it. Nothing. It’s useless. You can tell people it’s a value all day long, but unless you enforce it. And I don’t mean by that people are instantly going to go run around the value, but we’re human beings, right? I mean, we test the value. We’re boundary testers. That’s what we are as human beings. I mean, we’re many other things, but that’s one thing we are. And as a leader, if you say that’s a value, you have to enforce it.
[00:05:38.870] – Sean
So where am I going with this? I think, yes, you got the whole cats and dogs thing between sales and marketing, and they communicate differently. So they have to respect each other’s communication differences. They have to honestly learn both ways. I would briefly say, we can talk about this later, I think the most important skill a remote seller needs to have these days is to write. And there’s super concrete reasons I think that’s true that go a little bit beyond the obvious. So they have to understand each other and they have to relate. Where does that all come from? It’s up top. You have to put those values into the team. Salesforce, tell me how they came. You don’t tell me how they came, something bad happens in so many words, or you don’t get some cheese or whatever it is. Marketer, you don’t sit yourself in enough sales calls and you don’t go hang out with that SDR team and hey, you don’t even get on a plane every once in a while to go meet an actual customer. I don’t consider you a marketer because you don’t just get to go sit in a tower and just look at analytics reports all day.
[00:06:26.010] – Sean
And so I think it’s that. It’s this little diamond, I guess, where you’ve got sales and marketing on the edges. But at the top, you’ve got leadership and out at that point, you’ve got the customer. And leadership needs to force those sides to get out to the customer together. And when that happens, they understand each other.
[00:06:42.480] – Sean
Yeah, I think there’s definitely some opportunities for more communication between the two departments or the two people or representatives on both sides of the fence because marketing may look at the data all day long, but they’re never really get some concrete insights into the quality of the conversation that’s happening between the sales person and that potential lead. Because, let’s be honest, you jive with a certain type of lead. There’s a certain person you really jive with and there’s certain people you just don’t jive with. So I think the element of the salesperson itself and the relationship they build with that lead is important. And that’s something that I don’t think marketing has a vision on.
[00:07:16.010] – Sean
I would disagree slightly with a piece of it. I think really good B2B sellers, I used to say this, some people might say they’re chameleons, but I feel that’s so negative. That’s like a Glenn Glair, Glenn Ross vibe. Second place gets stake knives and third place gets fired vibe. I don’t think that’s the right way for most traditional B2B sellers that are selling complex solutions. These are highly intelligent people that are paid well and are fairly intuitive all in their own right. I think it’s more, I used to say, I’m a corporate cultural anthropologist. I really understand my account. I understand the people who live in that account. I understand that the way they relate to the company. Just jump into ABM efforts. Very frequently, if you looked at an ABM effort, if you looked at the percentage of time marketing is spending talking about the ABM effort, and the percentage of that time that involves having a salesperson in the room who knows the account, it’s sad how low that number is. I think it’s crazy because that’s the person who understands the cultural norms of that account. And that’s more on the ABM selling side.
[00:08:13.380] – Sean
But if you talk about that idea of just talking to leads and developing rapport, I think there’s just a huge initial ask that, frankly, again, if you pulled most CRMs, that field’s left blank, or it’s filled with a really generic answer. And marketing is desperate for something really concrete. Otherwise, marketing just leaves all the channels on, leaving all the lights on in the building and signing up for all the streaming services. And basically at that point, they have no idea what’s work. And there’s no excuse for that is my point. There’s that common thing that said like, I don’t know what part of my marketing is working. Okay. And everybody chuckles and laughs. I think that’s BS. I think there’s a simple way to know if it’s working. You talk to the people that filled out the lead for them. It’s as simple as that. But marketing is not talking to the people. And then they go run a generic survey and keep it in mind, we’re a firm that execute surveys, so we know there’s generic ones, too, that aren’t that good. Thankfully, I think that other people do. But there’s nothing better than getting that front tip of the sphere feedback and making sure the two teams talk.
[00:09:06.780] – Sean
And so anyway, it’s a little different take on what you said, but not massively so. I just think salespeople have so much power inside the company if you bother to listen to them. I think it is different to close this off. If it’s B2C and it’s the best buy blue shirt, okay, I would be cautious how much I ask a 16 year old what they think about the sales process of selling laptops to 50 year olds. I would be a little cautious about asking that. But even there, there’s somebody who’s had that job for a year. They probably know a lot. They know what signage in the store gets looked at. They know what comments get made about the marketing that’s there. Ask these. It’s so often, and I’ll stop here, that when we talk to marketers, and we love marketers, marketers. It’s mostly who we work with when it comes to research projects, we love working with marketers. Who’s the person they never invite to a meeting about the research effort, the kick off, the subsequent readouts, whether it’s buyer persona work or message testing or it’s brand sales. I don’t care what is.
[00:09:59.980] – Sean
You know who they never invite? A salesperson is who we ask them. Maybe the VP of sales shows up later, but they’ve got this whole sensor that’s sitting out there that could provide feedback for messaging. I don’t think you should ever write a messaging framework as a marketer in B2B unless you’ve had sales review it. And I know some people are like, Oh, my God. Sure, I get it. They don’t write like you. But I’ll tell you one thing, they know really good phrases. I had a client once who we were doing a messaging framework review and they had invited some salespeople. To be honest, a little bit because we nudged them and said, Why don’t you invite some key B2B salespeople? And this may be specific to a domain not everybody knows because we’re just B2B tech. One of the sellers said, when a marketer said, What if we include digital transformation as a… And before the marketer could even finish the phrase, the B2B seller said, I think around here digital transformation should be associated with a swear jar and the next time somebody says it, they need to put money in it.
[00:10:48.950] – Sean
Where is that feedback if they’re not in the room? Where is that visceral feedback? Because what that seller is saying is I’ve tried that phrase and everybody’s tired of it. So you all got to give me something better than.
[00:10:59.850] – Jason
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[00:11:45.240] – Sean
Let’s talk about alignment. When we’re talking about alignment, the efforts made by both departments in terms of measuring success, that’s a way to do that. Obviously, communication, but in your experience, Sean, how do you take that a step further?
[00:12:00.080] – Sean
Well, I’ll tell you a couple of things. A couple of things I think about metrics in general. I think the biggest problem we have in general as leaders, as a cohort, is we’re too willing to add metrics to what we measure. But most businesses these days can be analyzed to a degree that didn’t exist 100 years ago. Whether that’s dashboards or tools, or if you’re a cloud service, you can get so much data on users and their interaction to take effect. You can’t confuse your team. There’s typically a limited number of ultimate goals that they’re responsible for. Every sales meeting I have, we just start with the revenue numbers. Every marketing meeting, we start with the lead totals. The first thing is a little more traditional. I can tell you that the latter one isn’t as much. Even when we talk to marketers, as one of the classic things we will ask them, if the problem is related to lead gen is, how many leads do you typically produce among? I can tell you that, and I almost hate saying this, it’s a little negative on our customer base, but it’s real, they will skirt the question.
[00:12:58.970] – Sean
And then I’ll ask it again, how many were quality leads? And they skirt that question. So I would say on that side, the issue is I think marketing meetings need to be about the leads for portals. And I know there’s people in sample, but I don’t control the whole process and I’m not really sure and I don’t control the whole funnel. But ultimately, marketing exists to create a customer. This was said by people long before me. And if you don’t stay focused on that and you’re in all the other metrics, I think you’ve missed out. And so I would start there. If I was to open up a company and watch the meeting happen, I think you’d see too many marketing meetings where they don’t really talk about leads or they try to quickly get away from that number, or then they start to blame sales because sales didn’t activate the leads. And that’s where that problem was. So that’s a partial answer to the question. So you can go back to it. I know I didn’t get.
[00:13:42.210] – Sean
To all of it. I actually would have wanted to do here, Sean, is switch gears a bit. Because what I do want to talk about is because this has had a big impact in our business over the course of obviously the last three years, the pandemic, and the escalation of people working from home and being comfortable working from home. But when we talk about communication between sales and marketing teams, and then you take that virtually or take that remotely, what effect are you seeing that having? Because a knee jerk reaction is like, well, it’s going to have a negative impact because you can’t have those face to face interactions sitting at the boardroom table having those whiteboard. So what.
[00:14:15.440] – Sean
Do you talking about? Well, here’s the interesting thing about that. And I’ll be honest, I even did a podcast interview recently. Normally, I don’t get in a tussle with the interviewee and interviewer, and it wasn’t really that. I can count on one hand where it’s gotten like, we really aren’t on the same page about a topic, and it was a good dialog. But here’s the thing I noticed. This person just had a personal preference for being in person that they couldn’t validate actually was having the impact that they thought it was. Let me give you an example about in person versus virtual. Just take one-off the top and then I’ll go right back to what you said. What’s a common thing? We can’t be quite as creative when we’re virtual. And somebody will say, Well, you’ve got the conference room and the whiteboard and whatever. And I go, I think we were creative before whiteboards. I think we were creative before office chairs. I think there’s a lot of creativity that’s been done over the phone over the years. Creativity is about listening and engaging and having multiple inputs into your brain from the separate sources.
[00:15:11.350] – Sean
It’s about opening yourself up the possibilities, and it’s about engaging in good repartee. That doesn’t require you to be in the room necessarily to do that. And so to go back to sales, just to get away from that for a minute, I don’t have a graph of it, but I could make it if I’d bother to start it in year 2000. The size of the deal that I can sell virtually to Fortune 100 companies, which I have an extensive experience actually selling to, has grown bigger and larger every year. And the number of people that I’ve had to meet in person to close those deals has basically fallen to zero. There was a time where I had to meet at least somebody. You go back to 10 years ago, it was hard to close the deal unless you met at least one person along the way, maybe a significant person. But there was a time before that where you had to meet a lot of the people. But I would say the biggest hang up that when people are looking at the problem and they’re like, but I’m not being successful. I’m not being successful virtually.
[00:16:05.080] – Sean
Sure. Is it hard to get the same emotional pickup and read when you’re looking at a Zoom window that’s maybe only 300 by 300 pixels when you divide the screen by the eight people in the meeting. Sure, I get that. But there’s a lot that’s still there. There’s tone, there’s the way people communicate and pauses and stops and starts. We all know that we could pick up a lot even if we just shut our eyes and never looked at any of the video. But here’s the thing I think that hangs people up. I think it’s a salespeople don’t know how to write. And while that’s a known thing, it wasn’t so exposed until COVID for so many people. I had a client say to me one time, and he wasn’t trying to be a jerk about his own company. I think he was just trying to be force right and objective. He said, I had no idea I worked with so many stupid people until they had to write me emails to convince me to do things. And what he meant was, instead of that conversation in the hallway that’s like, Hey, John, you know that thing that we talked about the other day?
[00:16:59.420] – Sean
I mean, we’re on the same page about it, but I’d like to take a trip to say, How in the hell do you write that? Mark Twain once said, I would have written you a shorter letter, but I didn’t have the time. It is a skill to convince somebody to write it. And do you know who holds the key to that? Marketing. I was.
[00:17:17.430] – Sean
Going to say chat CPT for a second.
[00:17:19.220] – Sean
By the way, chat CPT too, and B ard, and all of the clones of it. I mean, yeah, of all the time, the irony of irony, right? The time where you have no excuses for writing a bad email, Grammarly, chat CPT, B ard, a million tools. I’m not calling these out because I got a stake in them. I’m just thinking writing tools, Toppy AI, Reggie AI. You go through the list, there’s a million of these things. And there’s no excuse for writing a bad email anymore. Now, I’m not saying those tools make a great email. I think we all know that all things, you’ll have to add a little bit of your own sauce on top of it. But I think you talk about partnership, that’s where you got an interesting relationship that isn’t always built up as much as it should Most marketers know how to write better than salespeople, but salespeople do a lot of communication in a written form these days, and I think they struggle with it in some ways. Just to sum up, if I had a B2B sales team, while there’s millions of things I would teach them in a remote environment, I would send them off to writing classes, or I’d make them read books like Writing Without Bullshit, which is a very good book about writing in the tech sector, and anything like that, because they’re just going to be better.
[00:18:26.000] – Sean
Whether it’s email sequences, proposals, Hey, can we have a meeting emails? It’s just the way it works these days.
[00:18:32.310] – Sean
It’s so interesting to see how the things have evolved since February 2020. We used to have employees in the office four days a week. Now we’re down to one day a month where we get the team together in our office. Everything’s done virtually, but it really does separate those salespeople that are good sales writers compared to those ones that do rely heavily on the face to face conversations and handshakes. There’s definitely a clear divide now. And if those people are not adapting to the likes of proper sales writing and leveraging platforms like garden chat GPT, they might be the ones losing out because people are leaning towards convenience more now than ever.
[00:19:08.190] – Sean
Correct. And then there’s the other thing. I mean, sales of any job is I’ve always said the ultimate meritocracy. And what I mean by that isn’t so much like you get out of it what you put in. I mean something related, but a little bit different, which is that you can have somebody work 20 hours and outperform somebody who works 60. I don’t really know of a job like that in most things. You know, coding for sure. Development teams, they’re sometimes a genius. You just can write on a weekend, it would take your whole team a month. There’s somewhat of a parallel with marketing. Sometimes people can just jam out, break copy at a speed nobody else can. Just from having managed sales, marketing, and service delivery teams, sales is always the one where that Delta is the biggest. And I think ultimately, given that, why don’t you want to put those sellers in an environment where they can sell so much more quickly as opposed to getting on a plane and going into a meeting and everything? Let’s take one other thing. Go into a B2B office, if it’s anything more than just the office complex down the street at the highway exit just down from you.
[00:20:08.040] – Sean
If you’re going to Big Company Co, Fortune 1000, Fortune 500, this is increasingly less friendly environment. I remember when you’d go in the lobby, now, maybe this is unique to tech, but back in the day, you could pretty much just walk into the building. You said, Hi to the receptionist. You just walked down the hall. Well, then all of a sudden became the security, then became the security walls, then became like, in some companies, you sign an NDA while you’re getting your visitor badge. In some companies, you don’t even get to go in the building anymore. They have rooms that aren’t in the building that are in the lobby that if somebody’s listening and going like, Well, if you’re a seller, you can get past that. I’m thinking the other way, trust me. There’s places where, and I won’t get into which companies right now, but you just don’t even really get inside the cloisters rooms. So you got to ask yourself, what am I doing on getting on a plane doing all that at the end of the day? And then you got to flip it around with, if you’re constrained with where you you can be geographically, I would rather sell where everybody is versus where I can be.
[00:21:05.470] – Sean
And that just opens up a whole bunch of more markets and things like that. But it does come down to really strong verbal communication on the front end. And sure, you can use ChatGPT as your partner, but to get back to marketing and sales alignment, you can use your marketer friend as a partner because they probably know how to write better than you as a seller. I would bet.
[00:21:21.980] – Sean
100 %. And you know what? To Sean, we could probably go on for a Joe Rogenesk episode, but the format of this show is not that.
[00:21:30.410] – Sean
It’s totally understandable.
[00:21:31.560] – Sean
But if our audience has any questions for you, Sean, what’s the best way for them to get in touch?
[00:21:36.120] – Sean
You can go to cascadeinsights. Com and you’ll see me there as the CEO, so you can connect with me through the site there. Or you could just email me @s ea@cd. Com and @cascade Insights.
[00:21:46.910] – Sean
Com. Awesome. Sean, we end every episode with the same question. That question is this, if you can choose one person that are alive to represent your brand, who would it be.
[00:21:55.600] – Sean
And why? Represent the brand. Okay, I have to put an asterisk then I’m probably not the only person that’s done that. Given I’m a historian in some ways, love reading everything history related, I’m well aware that people are, let’s just say, children of their time. So if I go back into history, anybody you could look at and say, but they did X and Y. And I’m just going to leave it at that. Times 100 years ago are different than now, and they’re different 100 years ago in the future. Leaving aside that point, I would probably pick Churchill because I feel like he was a man of his time. And we can point out many flaws. His communication skills, if you study the man and the things he said at the right times, not just the stuff that we all know about, so much owed to so few stuff. If you look at what he said, even the way he prepared for a speech, I’d recommend people look into the way he went about doing that. There’s a lot to learn about really good communication. And again, definitely a man of his time in both good and bad ways.
[00:22:51.960] – Sean
But from an ability to between the ears communicate really effectively because we’re pretty passionate about strong communication, I think that would be pretty cool. But again, he’s long gone. So that’s not really going to happen. And you know what? That’s somebody I would think about.
[00:23:05.870] – Sean
191 episodes and not one person has picked Churchill, believe it or not. And you are the first. What’s funny is if you just Google motivational quotes, more often than not Churchill is going to be like… Oh, yeah.
[00:23:18.580] – Sean
This is a guy that said things like, This is not the end. It is not the beginning of the end. But perhaps it might be the end of the beginning, which might be a good way to end an episode.
[00:23:28.740] – Sean
Yes, I’m a rugby guy. And he also said soccer is a gentleman’s game played by hooligans and rugby is a hooligan’s game played by gentlemen. There you go.
[00:23:36.560] – Sean
Yeah, I know exactly. We can do 30 minutes on Churchill quotes, probably, if you want to know. Awesome.
[00:23:42.840] – Sean
Cool. Sean, thank you so much for your time.
[00:23:45.110] – Sean
Thanks.
[00:23:46.090] – Jason
Real quick, guys, if you are active on Instagram or TikTok, I encourage you to go on over and give my personal profile a follow @jhunt official, J AY, HUNT, OFF, ICIAL. Over there on Instagram and TikTok, I’m posting my favorite highlights from the Merged Marketing podcast, along with some of the highlights from my speaking engagements overseas as well as locally. Ton of value. Go on over and check it out @jhanofficial. I’d like to thank you for listening to the Merged Marketing podcast and I invite you to subscribe so you never miss an episode of the Merged Marketing podcast. One of the best ways to do that is to add us to your Instagram @mergedmedia, M E R GED, M E DIA. Go on over there, give Merged Media follow and subscribe and never miss an episode. Thank you so much for listening. We’ll talk to you soon.
